Rus News Journal

War in the Near East eyes of the Israeli members of parliament

the Head a press - the centre a political observer
N.Andrushchenko:
- Today the Publishing house greets at itself on a visit deputies of the Knesseth of Joseph Shagala and Zeeva Elkina. A subject today`s a press - conferences the Conflict in the Near East eyes of eyewitnesses . I ask you who will begin? What for this moment occurs between Israel and Lebanon?

Z.Elkin:
- Good afternoon. And I, and Joseph Shagal, am valid eyewitnesses. We not simply Israeli members of parliament who have arrived to Russia. We have spent a lot of time for last month in northern cities of Israel. Near to us these were broken off Katyushas therefore the answer to a question - that occurs? - I will begin with very simple fact.
every day on territory of Israel falls last days from 150 to 200 rockets.   and as it proceeds already whole month today for the short period inhabitants of the whole front city of Kirjat of the Frisk have been evacuated. Because people cannot bezvylazno be in bombproof shelters. It is almost impossible.
  On the country rockets every day fall, and one million inhabitants of Israel is under this rocket attack. If to look at this conflict, to me often ask a question: when it will end and than it will end?
  at Israel very simple purpose in this war. He repeatedly voiced it. The purpose is a calmness of northern Israeli cities. Me repeatedly asked, unless from - for two Israeli soldiers it was necessary to begin this war?
this   war has not begun from - for attacks on two Israeli soldiers. This war has begun from - that else before capture of two Israeli soldiers 100 rockets have fallen to territory of Israel.
  one main reason - rocket bombardment of Israel. And this war at Israel has one main task - to secure northern cities of Israel against rocket attack.
it can be made in the different ways but while this problem is not executed these military operations will not end. It is the second important point which is important for understanding concerning that occurs today in Israel.
apparently if will not be in the shortest terms of any international decision, and there will be no international forces which will carry out this problem, it   it is necessary to execute armies of defence of Israel.
you know that session of a military office which should make the decision, probably, on expansion of operations today will take place. It is necessary to provide safe radius from rocket bombardments.

N.Andrushchenko:
- As the members of parliament consider, what radius is necessary? What should the cabinet undertake?

Z.Elkin:
- the Situation very simple. Bombardment of Israel is conducted by two types of rockets. There are rockets of short radius. It nearby 100 with small kilometres.
there are rockets of distant radius. Rockets of distant radius have advantage to Israel. After start the rocket launcher is destroyed. It in a status to make Israeli military - air forces.
at rockets of short radius of action it is impossible to destroy the launcher after start. Simply it cannot so quickly be marked and destroyed. Therefore the problem of land forces simple - to deduce as it is possible bolshee quantity of the Israeli cities from threat of rockets of short radius. It about 100 km. Each advancement on superfluous 5 - 10 km deduces the next Israeli city with its population, it can be several thousand the person or some tens thousand persons, from radius of blow of rockets.

I.Shagal:
- If will allow, I will add. I the deputy of the Knesseth from party Our house   - Israel . My colleague very precisely   all has depicted. I want to add that Israel at the moment wages war on three fronts. The first front is the north, the second about which now write, but from it it a little, unfortunately, does not become less dangerous and notable, it is southern front. Rockets to Cash desks continue to fall on southern cities of Israel, And the third front, the most important, on my sight though all important, is information front.
  and it, actually, also calls our arrival here to Moscow. Elkin has arrived from Israel, I have arrived now from Kiev.
I was in Kiev 2 days, met with Ukrainian to representatives of mass-media and the Ukrainian political circles. This information front, on it does not flow blood, it is all clearly. But as I was engaged 36 years in journalism, I have the moral right to name you colleagues.
and so. Colleagues, you fine know, not to you to explain that the product of this front can wound, kill and destroy at all less, and, maybe, even more than rockets of average and distant radius of action. We would like and have the right to count on that according to events on the Lebanese front, unfortunately, for 4 weeks last after the beginning after that the conflict, the obvious disbalance is observed.
  today officially in the Knesseth holiday, but nobody has gone on leave. And very many deputies of the Knesseth have left in those countries which language they own or whence have arrived.
  you know that Israel is the country of repatriates. Finally, all whence - that have arrived to this country. English-speaking, Spanish-speaking and French-speaking are today in these countries and try to explain a state Israel position on the most notable moments.
the official policy of the government of Russia and a management looks and, actually, and there is such, much more loyal, thought over and constructive, rather than a position of mass-media. That is it seems to me that this paradox is notable enough for us because I want to remind you that in Israel lives one million 200 thousand natives of the former Soviet Union.
in Israel there live people whom it is traditional   worry about that country, whence they have left. They did not become foreigners. In this sense Israel receives all information channels from Russia. All television channels from Moscow. Any event which occurs here, we mean all history of formation of the Russian state, new Russia, it was actively discussed, endured and has called very big approval among those people who have left from here. It is normal.
today ourselves do not feel this support. I spoke already with colleagues,   it is wrong, when in bombproof shelters veterans of the Great Patriotic War, people with medal laths sit. People who have made much for fascism defeat. And today to their party fly Katyushas a victory symbol over fascism.
and it as though half-misfortunes. A full misfortune that they do not feel words of support, approval words, at least understanding words. This nuance, of course, very much we will feel. We would like, that we today here, meeting representatives of mass-media, points at issue could clear up, clear up and achieve mutual understanding.

N.Andrushchenko:
- I understand, how to you this third front or the fourth power is important. But, nevertheless, justice always was basis price   the Russian mentality. Who has the first begun? How much victims and why bomb civilians? Therefore, probably, also there is no support.

Z.Elkin:
- For the answer to a question - who the first has begun? - It is better not to set it. Even to us as to the Israeli members of parliament or the Israeli government, the answer to this question was given by the world community already for a long time.
Here, in territory of Russia in summit decisions G8 . A part of the decision, the summit decision G8 under which Russia has subscribed also, bore in itself the answer to a question: who has the first begun?
Hezbollah . Now round this dispute, at least, in the international community and leaders of the international community are not present. And business not only in capture of the Israeli soldiers. Though capture of soldiers in territory of the sovereign state, they have been grasped not Lebanon, they have been grasped in territory of Israel. It in general - that aggression. But the matter is that before it, as responding maneuver, Hezbollah attacked in hundreds rockets the Israeli territory.
I will result as an example, it, by the way, well shows about what Joseph spoke. In one of interview which at me was today, I met the journalist of one of the Russian newspapers, and have told about it. She has told: yes, I know, my husband has been wounded by such rocket, he lives in Israel. And, it is wounded before the Israeli soldiers have been grasped.
it shows two things. The first, how it really occurred. And the second, that communication between Israel and Russia about which Joseph spoke now. 30 - 40 % of the population of fired cities are today a Russian-speaking population. And when you go down in a refuge where people month it is frequent 50 - 60 % sit. That is every second person in this refuge speaks Russian. I, as the person who has driven and have visited a considerable quantity of bombproof shelters, I to you can accurately testify it.

I.Shagal:
- I would like to respond to the second part of your question, what such the peace Arab and how shoot on peace Arabs? Let`s discuss at once. Probably, you do not know, and, can, know and simply do not remember, that Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation, instead of military formation. Hezbollah does not carry distinctions. They go in civil jackets, they do not have peak-caps.

N.Andrushchenko:
- And there precisely there are seven-year children among warriors Hezbollah ?

I.Shagal:
- Seven-year children and there, and at us. Question now how they were lost? What is today basic bases Hezbollah ? Imagine the usual house, where - that in Nagatino, in any area of Moscow. In this house there live simple people, in jackets or not in jackets as Elkin speaks. It is right, there jackets do not carry. In trousers. They have wife, the mother-in-law if has not carried. Children. As it is necessary. It is the house, it is the usual house. In a cellar of this house a warehouse of ammunition. The system is constructed so that from this house the volley 10 - 15 rockets can be simultaneously made. It is a military facility.
  in it there live children, it is natural. Because they should live with parents. There is a question: on what   such tactics is calculated?
  tactics refined enough, I would tell, east. On my memory only fascists did such things. Remember, they started up before tank columns of the captured. And the Soviet army could not shoot on a tank column because ahead went captured, It was the problem. It is known history.

N.Andrushchenko:
- And Basayev will be remembered that.

I.Shagal:
- Basayev. It is extremely brutal. It we will not discuss. These are emotions. And so, what the Israeli army does before attacks these peace houses which, as a matter of fact, are military facilities?
in - the first, leaflets are scattered. In - the second, it is informed by radio. In - the third, an unprecedented case, I as the person specialising on activity of special services, can tell to you that such still never was. Mossad the Israeli political investigation by phone, in telephone directory calls in these houses and speaks: Misters, in 2 hours this house will be attacked, because from this house start-up of rockets " have been made;. Hence, children, at their fathers and mums have time to take children for a hand and to withdraw them in a safe zone. What occurs, why they there remain? Yes do not start up them, simply do not start up. They say that this our business.

N.Andrushchenko:
- Each house is warned by phone.

I.Shagal:
- All country. Hezbollah has told in reply to it that israelites try to demoralise spirit of Shiits. That is the prevention that leave because there will be rockets, it is called demoralisation of spirit of Shiits.
I conceive it as the prevention that withdraw the child. Leave, clean women. War as the man, cease to close itself children. Cease to provoke the whole world. Cease to pour   crocodile tears.
that turns out? Look at reportings which are given by the Russian television. Once again, with all respect for you, misters, it is wrong, when you show these tears in the face of women who meet the child whom have pulled out from Beirut.
yes, it is all correctly. And Russia carries out noble mission to rescue the...

N.Andrushchenko:
- Give due, Russian television gives two pictures in a parallel. And from Israel, and Lebanon.

Z.Elkin:
- Unfortunately, not always. I will result last example. We see the Russian television. By the way, in these refuges, many look the Russian television, every second Russian-speaking. And all time ask, why us there do not show?
  a living example. I looked yesterday here a news number of NTV. Has included news casually in hostel. There there was a line, eighty bombing attacks to Lebanon, such - that destructions. I have switched to Bi - Bi - Si. It is the channel which does not differ special benevolence to Israel. There there were two lines: eighty bombing attacks to Lebanon, 140 rockets have fallen to territory of Israel. In this small additive, in the second heading is much from this about what Joseph spoke here.

N.Andrushchenko:
- Colleagues, I ask your questions. Tell concerning United Nations Security council. Which day proceeds session. The resolution has been rejected, from which Israel agreed, and Lebanon is not present. A leah you consider it is correct? When wait for the decision from the international community, and which?

Z.Elkin:
- All is very simple. In - the first as all of us know, the Security council resolution, therefore Israel till now is not accepted cannot pass an opinion the official point of view of that does not exist yet. But at present dynamics was that. There was a draught variant of the decision of the Security council, not offered, by the way, Israel, the offered USA and France in common.   by the way, it has been supported also by Russia. Israel has told that he waits for the official publication of the document to publish the official decision. But more - less it was ready to support the resolution. The country which has unequivocally opposed this resolution, there was Lebanon. For clear reasons if want, we can go deep into it then.   Israel is not interested in one superfluous bottom of this war. This war costs to Israel to life, this war costs to the Israeli economy of huge money.
unlike Lebanon, Israel is not converted to the world community and does not speak: pay to us for it. But as a member of financial committee of the Israeli parliament I to you can tell that huge losses are born by national economy from each day of war.
  But Israel has one most important base condition of all of that occurs. Northern cities of Israel should be protected from rocket bombardment. Someone should make it. That is insurgents Hezbollah therefrom someone should clean. This someone could be the Lebanese government.
Israel already as waits six years it from the Lebanese government. Israel has left from territory of southern Lebanon. Also there was a paradoxical situation. I, as the historian on the previous speciality, do not know this sort of example when a part of territory of the country of Lebanon supervisedas the armed militias, instead of army of this country. And on it is Israeli - to the Lebanese frontier there was no Lebanese frontier guard.
there stood Hezbollah . So happens, when this militia which wars against army of the country? Hezbollah does not war against the Lebanese army. Hezbollah a part of the Lebanese government. But thus there there was no Lebanese army. If it has made the Lebanese government, war would not be. If it in a status to make it, this war there and then will end, as soon as the Lebanese army will clean therefrom Hezbollah . In the beginning of this war the prime minister - the minister of Lebanon has acted and has told that Lebanon itself not in a status it to make, the international help is necessary.
the international help is necessary, Israel is ready to discuss and it. But if it will be not not made by anybody, it will be made by army of defence of Israel because any country, neither Russia, nor Israel, nobody will be ready to accept a situation when on country cities every day fall 100 - 200 rockets.

N.Andrushchenko:
- If in the Security Council resolution it will be designated: to clean Hezbollah from Lebanon then Israel will be ready to stop military operations?
 
Z.Elkin:
- Speech does not go at all about the new resolution of Security Council. Already as 6 years exist the resolution 1559 where it is written that Hezbollah should   to be disarmed, where it is written that the Lebanese army should put all territory of Lebanon under control. This resolution is not executed till now. Also it is not executed Hezbollah . Hezbollah unique Lebanese militia, unique. There there were many armed formations which have not disarmed till now.
Hezbollah to the contrary, has strengthened the positions, but it was never strong in the south of Lebanon. When all have disarmed, it is not present, that is it has strengthened the positions after the south of Lebanon. Therefore, from this point of view, the Israeli army tells very simple thing. We are ready to leave provided that if we leave at 12 o`clock in the morning as the Israeli prime minister - the minister at o`clock in the morning the same day on that territory, whence we have left has told, armed forces or army of Lebanon, or the international community, having the real mandate which will provide one simple thing enter. In that strengthened division or in that pillbox constructed on the Iranian money Hezbollah the insurgent " will not return; Hezbollah . Because if it will return,   that it means that there will be still lost children and adults on the Israeli party. It means that will still be endangered   life of the Israeli soldiers when it again should be beaten out therefrom.
  to beat out it therefrom Lebanon not in a status, the international forces too not so hurry it to make.

I.Shagal:
- Would like to specify. The matter is that the prime minister - the minister of Lebanon, it in the beginning if remember, has told, what yes, we agree presence at this demilitarised zone of a foreign, foreign contingent of armies, peacemakers. Today he declares that   categorically with it it do not agree. It is asked: and what has happened? What transformation in the inflamed consciousness of this person? And very simple.
the matter is that there is no government of Lebanon. There are no high-grade people whom decisions are capable to make and to be responsible for the acts.
is Hezbollah . Today all decisions of the government of Lebanon are sounded by the deputy of parliament from this party. Today Fas Sinoro against in Lebanon was at least one foreign soldier. They named it almost occupation.
actually it is that situation, from the point of view Hezbollah when the worse, the better.
Hezbollah it is interested in continuation of escalation of violence. Why? Because while it will be realised, and we very much hope that it will be realised, the decision of Security council of the United Nations which would consider essence of this conflict. Also would create really demilitarised zone under kontroljami, under responsibility of foreign contingents of armies. But, as our prime minister - the minister, not invalids has told. It is not necessary to send army Dahomey and etc. Send normal representatives.

:
- a leah Will support Israel sending of the Russian peace-making contingent to Lebanon?

I.Shagal:
- At us speak so: and you that, are already ready to send?

Z.Elkin:
- the Official position of Israel very simple of structure of the international contingent. First of all this structure will be defined by the one who sends it. Israel has exactly one main requirement to this contingent that it was strong enough, with sufficient powers to provide one simple thing. Not presence of the armed insurgents Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.
those forces of the United Nations which there exist today, have very concrete mandates. It is forbidden to them to attack, they can be protected only in a case when they are attacked. Here such international forces and will help nothing to anybody.

I.Shagal:
- Has put at all in the international forces. And business in that country which stands up for these international forces. Anybody does not call any doubts full value of the Russian army, its ability to carry out specific targets. A question only in they will receive what mandate. If Russia is ready to send the contingent, and this contingent will not make that their predecessors who throughout 6 years worked strictly to the contrary have made. That is, having the resolution of Security council of the United Nations to disarm Hezbollah and they did all strictly to the contrary. Played dominoes while those easy armed.
Were covered - we cannot attack. Excuse, structures, trucks with rockets went in thousand, the earth rummaged, prepared fortifikatsionnye strengthenings, communication was spent. Understand that this strip in Lebanon represents today. The line of Mazhino has a rest. It simply there is not present. It is made by modern, last word of technics. The concreted pillboxes, concrete on a case of nuclear war. Children have simply become stronger over head and ears. And all at them is good, and all at them is perfectly in order.
Today that it is all to destroy, not because we for destruction, that is why that we for security of the state Israel, security of our northern borders. There there lives one million person. This our children, is our parents, our brothers. Never under no circumstances Israel allowed to solve for it safety issues. Israel always wared itself. Never asked the humanitarian help. And, maybe, it is our problem that we do not show the children killed and wounded men. Perhaps, we in it are not right. Perhaps, we need to go, lower the profile. The child have wounded, there it is not known than have wounded, show on all chambers. From different foreshortenings. We   - it we do not do. We consider it below the worthiness. Probably, it is correct.

Z.Elkin:
- Thus we know that this child has relatives who should not see for the first time it on the TV screen.

And. Walked:
- Even soldiers who perish, their names are not informed within two days to allow to be prepared to the relative. It has friends, it has relatives. Know, at all mobile phones, time such.
  I in Kiev was with the colleague of mister Elkina on party, the representative of the party Kadimy the professor Michael Nobelmanom.
  He is an inhabitant of Kiev. We flied with it in the plane. His son, the reservist, have called four days ago, my son who too was in Southern Lebanon in 80 - h years, called three days ago.

Z.Elkin:
- And my brother too.

N.Andrushchenko:
- it Is called till now operation?

Z.Elkin:
- Is not present, military operations .

N.Andrushchenko:
is a war or not?

Z.Elkin:
- There is a difference between military operations and war in two directions. The first - Lebanon did not declare to Israel war. Israel as the country did not declare war to Lebanon. But Israel has been attacked from territory of Lebanon by a part of the Lebanese government if want, and, naturally, is responsible for this aggression. The second difference between war and military operations is that in Israel civil system while in a status to manage to drive the country. That is a country government in the centre, in the south   it is not passed in hands of a service of the rear of the Israeli army. If it was declaration of war management in the country is passed in hands of corresponding services to a military situation. Israel while, the Israeli government has not made such decision. Yes, in general, also there are reasons at present no it to accept.
But for the person who sits in a refuge and at which its relatives or the acquaintances are wounded, which month cannot already go for work, or to leave to buy meal in the next shop, to it this meal needs to be brought to a refuge, for it it, believe, war.

I.Shagal:
- So they also name - war.

Z.Elkin:
- Certainly.

  the First channel:
- it is well-known that in the Arabian world authority Hezbollah all rises above and above. At the same time hatred to israelites grows. And how in Israel is with this business?

Z.Elkin:
is very characteristic question: what reaction in Israel when from bombardment of the next house, bombardment of Israel whence was conducted, the Lebanese children were lost? And it is not important that in the beginning said that 50 persons, then 27 there were lost. It at all does not change an essence of the matter. In Israel about it not that there was no display of pleasure any, in Israel about it was not only official sympathy, I saw persons of members of parliament - on the right, at the left, from the centre, on all political spectrum this day. All of them have been very strongly stifled, because any Israeli politician does not want victims of the peace population. Because such is our culture, such is our morals. And it not in interests of the country, too any person understands it.
therefore from the point of view of Israel no signs of pleasure are present. When the rockets which have been let out initially on peace cities, get and from them children, by the way, not only Jewish perish. Third of victims of rockets Nasrally   it arabsko - druzskoe the population of Israel today. In this sense it is the next time shows that it not evrejsko - the Arabian conflict, is the conflict of an extremist terrorist network or a link, somehow it name, with a western civilisation if want. When these children the pleasure in streets of Beirut, unfortunately, not only in streets of Beirut, happens both in streets Gazas and in other places perish. It, probably, our cultural and mental distinctions in it. But Israel does not consider that it is today in war with the Arabian world as that. By the way, it does not consider also the Arabian world. I will remind you that at sessions of League of the Arabian countries the decision to declare Israel was not accepted an aggressor. Because there are many Arabian countries and their leaders which understand that Hezbollah poses for them threat big, than Israel today.
  It is war of Islamic extremist terror which far does not represent all Islam and all Islamic world. But amplifies and threatens. And war, want, western, a western civilisation, name it somehow, and in this war Israel and Russia on one party of barricades. Because, that occurred on September, 11th in New York, or that occurred in Beslan, or that occurs in northern cities of Israel today, or in Spain when trains blow up, is a part of one war.
it is not casual, if you look at a sign Hezbollah it is very symbolical. There the soldier is represented, the insurgent with the automatic machine which holds all globe in the hands, and speaks We - party of God . It is name transfer Hezbollah .

N.Andrushchenko:
- you say that Israel and Russia on one party of barricades. What do you think of that Hezbollah and HAMAS are not recognised by the terrorist organisations in Russia?

Z.Elkin:
- very much I regret for it, certainly. As during all moments when there was a threat from terrorists in Russia and to the Russian citizens, the position of Israel was unequivocal. Israel, unequivocally, has supported Russia all - and publicly, and was ready to help technology available for it during capture on the North - Oste . Israel also has supported Russia in Beslan. Because Israel very well understands that it with Russia on one party of barricades. Certainly, Israel expected from Russia that in similar situations when Israel under the threat of this international extremist Islamic terror, Russia would conduct as itself, as well as all international community.
  after all it is possible to agree with the person, at which to you territorial claims. Fair, is not present is it is possible to discuss. But it is possible to make concessions, tell: it is better to me to concede a territory part to provide security of the citizens. But with the person who speaks: My problem - to establish world supremacy it is impossible to agree, it is possible only or to recognise over itself its world supremacy, or to combat it.
  it is that situation in which today there was a western civilisation, everything, it is not important, where it

I.Shagal:
- There there is one more nuance. A Russian management when invited to negotiations HAMAS, it explained it as. We try to help to solve a problem, we try to establish dialogue, we try to help. That is, finally, the purposes were absolutely   - good.
a question - in other. That if and further all will go under the same scheme, that is it is always clear that chances of the permission of this problem have been undertaken by a diplomatic way, their great variety. But inherently they are settled. Perhaps, following negotiations then it is possible to accept tolerant   Negotiations with Al - Kaidoj .
Why also is not present? It is possible to try and with them to establish the connexion. Actually, I assure you, a question not of extremism and not in aggression. It simply form of a survival.
  Russia - the big country which knows that such terror. Truncated any, but terror. Moscow knows that such terror.   someone has asked me today: and how in Tel - Abib? I tel - avivets. I live in the country centre. In Tel - Abib of the rocket do not fall. How the people feel? I speak: it is too small country that those who lives out of a zone of reach of rockets, felt well, knowing that there, in the north fall, but it us does not concern.
Israel is as such law on informed vessels. All country, as a fist. Also is not present such, you did not hear anything about the Israeli refugees. They are not present. As in that joke: will not wait. Know, why? Because at my place today lives four persons. It is my friends. They have arrived from the north.
I assure you, of each house, in each city which is not subjected to bombardments, there live people from the north. They are not considered as refugees. They have simply arrived to the friends, relatives - to wait. Basically it is connected with elderly people it is difficult to them to transfer these military burdens. But as a whole Israel is too much and too long tried to follow the tastes at The world community. And in it as it seems to me, has lost. The most good intentions. We have left Lebanon six years ago. We have fulfilled all requirements. Also what we have received in the answer?
  we have left Gaza as that was demanded by the world community. Also what we have received? On those places where there were the magnificent beautiful houses constructed by hands of people, today rocket installations. And at us shoot. So asks: can, it is not necessary to leave? And if we now leave from West cost so at us and therefrom will start to shoot?
so, where, truth, where logic of events? The world community, without making decisions, thereby provokes Israel to refusal of those decisions which are accepted by the world community. The United Nations Organization which now frankly degrading organisation which decisions nobody carries out, and, nevertheless, in Kofi Annan`s this situation finds in itself, I will try to be politically correct, finds in myself boldness to accuse Israel.
Finally if to go by the way of charge, it is necessary to accuse Kofi Annan. The person who heads the United Nations Organization and publishes the decision about organisation disarmament Hezbollah has not made anything. Besides, it has made all that Hezbollah have armed with the advanced weapon. And those of a victim which are today in the north of Israel, a victim - on his head, on its responsibility, on United Nations shoulders. They should be responsible for it. Time will come, and they will respond. If this organisation is not capable to consult with the functions, it should samoraspustitsja, pass the mandate of other organisation more essential. Today, excuse, it is a bluff. Behind this organisation it costs nothing.

N.Andrushchenko:
- There is a doubt that the Russian management supports you. You as - that are definitely assured of it, however yesterday from Cyprus the humanitarian help has left to Lebanon. And the first Russia has not supported the Security council resolution.

Z.Elkin:
- We do not say that Russia on our party. Unfortunately, Russians not on our party. I say that we would expect from Russia which struggles with the same problems that it will be on our party.
  if, God forbid, Hezbollah in this war leaves with any achievements the raising of fighting spirit of Islamic terrorists will be not only in to Hezbollah it will be a raising of fighting spirit of HAMAS. But not only HAMAS, there will be exactly same raising of fighting spirit of the Chechen terrorists. It will mean that terror it is possible to achieve something. Therefore we would expect it, what yes as the Security council resolution has not been taken out on voting, therefore we cannot check up, its Russia would support or not. While there was a draught variant of this project, Russia has told that it more - less behind it costs. While the Lebanese government, having changed the position radically, how it was in the war beginning, under pressure Hezbollah has told that it is not ready on input of the international forces not only Russia, and France have rediscovered discussion texts of this resolution. Therefore in this sense the position of Russia does not differ from a position of Europe. About what Joseph here spoke, it all the same was the discord in comparison with a position of Russia and of some the Russian mass-media, not in favour of Israel. But it already other problem.

N.Andrushchenko:
- Many international experts the Russian, recognised authorities all over the world, say that already there are doubts who whom supervises - the United States over Israel or to the contrary. Therefore as this war threatens to extend to Iran. And Iran is a main invention of the United States. Hands of Israel to win Iran. What do you think of it?

Z.Elkin:
- In - the first, very simple base thing with which it is necessary to begin. Israel categorically within the limits of this confrontation does not put to itself an involving problem in the conflict Iran, Syria. Though Israel very well understands, who stands up for Hezbollah who armed Hezbollah who continues to deliver the weapon to Hezbollah . And whose interests protects Hezbollah .
  After all Hezbollah wars not for the sake of Lebanon. This war was not necessary to Lebanon. It suffers from it a huge damage. Hezbollah wars for the sake of interests of Iran to which there was an interest in some escalation of intensity. Israel is not ready to involve itself now in regional war. Because Israel does not want superfluous victims on the party, in a strange land. Moreover, this war Israel did not wait, not Israel has untied it. And the most good proof to it consists in one simple fact: Israel was not ready to it. If here this hearing, idea, you not the first who asks me this question that Israel has launched war under the American pressure to strike blow to Iran and Syria if it was truth, believe to me, Israel - the state which is able to prepare for war very well. Bombproof shelters would be opened, reservists would be called in advance.
Israel has a wide experience. This war has fallen down Israel in one clear day when it had absolutely other problems in the south of the country. Then it has been attacked, and at the government any more does not remain an exit.
there there was a reaction of Israel absolutely unequivocal and clear. When the territory of the country is attacked by such quantity of rockets. Therefore to say here that Israel wars for the sake of the American interests, it is senseless. Israel does not war for the sake of nobody`s interests, except own and citizens.
Israel has allies. The United States in this situation have supported Israel, because,   not only because they love or do not love Israel that is why that after that has occurred in America on September, 11th, all America and the American authorities understand that they have appeared with Israel on one party of barricades. When terror conquers one point of globe, especially if it is Islamic extremist terror, tomorrow he conquers other point of globe.

I.Shagal:
- I would add still that is the official data, it is necessary to understand that Israel wages this war in white gloves. Also uses 5 percent from the military potential. I to that say that to us America in this question not that not the decree, at us very much good relations with America, allied relations, but America basically very seldom gets into our affairs. And an indicator of that America as speak gipsies, nobly contains interests of Israel, and, to the contrary, on a historical example.
in 1991 the first Iraq war if remember, the territory of Israel has been attacked by 43 rockets Skad which unforgettable Saddam Hussein sent with the God`s help. It   wanted to get necessarily in   the nuclear centre in Dimone. And in Israel there was a terrible political debate.
that such, fighting pilots, fighting officers, we sit as a rat, having hammered, and we do not attack, and us attack. But there was a request of America, they very well understood that if Israel will interfere with this war, then it   can flow in the regional conflict. Nobody has been interested in it.
America waged local war, Israel has sustained and was not got involved. But pay attention, this scheme very indicative. That is called extreme. Like America would attack Iraq. And, here Israel. Any soldier was not. But drop rockets to Israel. To a question on mutual relations also that will not seem a little. Our soldiers perish, first of all,   not because they are not able to war, they well are able to war, that is why that as Zeev has quite right noted, they were not ready to this war. This the first. It was the unexpectedness. And the second. Their actions are held down by commanders. Actions of commanders are held down by a political management.
installation is simple: we should not call anger of the world community. We should not kill children. Therefore to the soldier speak: a mosque - do not shoot, church - do not shoot. Women, the child - do not shoot. The peace man, it touches nobody - not to shoot. These are war laws: when you do not shoot - shoot at you. Especially if you war not against army which has distinctions, and against usual civilians who under the hollow have everything that is necessary.
  It clasps a jacket - go, understand, who it. So, by the way, they also consider terrorists. Therefore they reduce quantity of the killed. And actually them today more than three hundred.

N.Andrushchenko:
- If it is possible, concerning white gloves specify. Because military men of Israel always were famous for dot blows. Now speak about chaotic bombardments not only houses, rockets " whence fly up; Hezbollah but bombardments of the peace population   cities.

I.Shagal:
- the Counter question: who speaks?

N.Andrushchenko:
- Mass media.

I.Shagal:
is anybody.

Z.Elkin:
- One simple example: how much time you hear in news that this morning, yes, every day it repeats, the next Israeli soldiers in small Lebanese village Bendzhbel were lost.

N.Andrushchenko:
- the Victim - are non-comparable.

Z.Elkin:
- There is one Lebanese village where the Israeli soldiers every day perish. There is no problem at the Israeli Air Forces to wipe out this village. It does not occur exactly for the reason that instructions of the political power of the country - in nowise it not to do. On each house where the bomb is dumped, the decision is accepted according to the available information on conducted bombardments and on bombardments.
yes, it is truth, at Israel the exact weapon. Yes, it is truth, when Hezbollah starts the rocket the Katyusha She precisely knows that it will not get to a military facility, and will get to the civil. When Israel lets out a bomb, he aspires to get to one concrete house. A leah gets for hundred percent? No. There is no exact weapon today in the world which can provide absolute hit exactly in the purpose, it is time. And the second as here Joseph already spoke, I am not familiar with one army in the world, army, not insurgents - terrorists which has all warehouses and all launchers, and all command constructions in a cellar 15 - floor or 20 - floor houses.

I.Shagal:
- In a thick of inhabited microdistricts. I will result one more example. It very indicative. Why - that the press too so not so touches it. It is a situation when four representatives of the United Nations have been killed. About it knew the whole world, and Kofi Annan whom I concern with special tenderness, it has simply hastened   us to denounce.

Z.Elkin:
- I Remind, Joseph - the deputy from opposition, therefore it presumes sharp statements And I from a coalition. If I it tell, it means that the Israeli government has opposed Kofi Annan.

I.Shagal:
- I do not oppose Kofi Annan, I personally against it am able nothing, but I am simple against the Organization. And so, the United Nations have denounced murder of four peacemakers, and in three days the letter of one of victims, the major of the Canadian army, its Internet - the letter to the wife in which he wrote that " has been published; Hi, expensive, something recently near us children from " very actively turn; Hezbollah and me it is all very much it is not pleasant . Understand, what occurs? Thus Hezbollah showing activity in that area where the United Nations point is deployed, has called on itself fire. Because Israel attacked the purpose. And in this purpose, it appears, there were four more soldiers.
it -   dishonest war. It at all war by and large because the army should not war against terrorists. Counterterrorist divisions of that country where they are should war against terrorists.
but when, in - the first, it is not so simple terrorists, it is army of terrorists, such in the history of a civilisation yet was not. It is impossible, in territory sovereign the state, under the aegis of the sovereign state, at protection of the sovereign state and its support the structure arms, arms so that to declare war to the sovereign state, by the way, not to the weakest. And precisely count on that with them will not finish for three days as, probably, it and followed make. And will war in white gloves, will look back, will punish the commanders that the bomb really tochechno has not got exactly there, and it was displaced on 15 metres aside, the guilty child was lost really than not. Business is business, but what to do, people perish.

N.Andrushchenko:
- Any idea is not necessary tears of the child.

Z.Elkin:
- Any idea of tear of the child is not necessary, but when Israel is urged to choose between tears of the child and tears of the Lebanese child, responsibility of the Israeli government all - taki is more on tears of the child. Just as Russian - on tears of the Russian child. This question costs because that this bomb will not be started, the Israeli child today from the same launcher, any government first of all so the international community is arranged will be lost, should care of destiny of the child. It not the soldier against the child, is the child against the child.
  :
- Yesterday on the Internet I saw last report from this war about losses. Lebaneses 987 persons, among them insurgents " were lost; Hezbollah 63 persons. Under other data - 300 - 400 persons Israelites were lost 32 persons of civilians and 64 soldier, plus two soldiers are till now in hostages.   a leah it is possible as - that so to conduct operations that giblo it is less than children?
Z.Elkin:
- the Answer to it very simple. I a little bit will correct your statistics, at me it is before eyes. As to the Lebanese statistics From almost thousand lost where - that of 50 percent perishing are insurgents. Now among the Israeli victims. Some days ago there was a small additive. 100 israelites were lost, from them there were 39 civilians and 61 military men. I will add to it that from these 61 military men in this figure 12 of military men which were lost from Katyushas they only by accident have appeared military men.
has fallen the Katyusha in territory of Israel where they stood. From this point of view they were as simple civilians. That is from katyushas was lost in Israel during this war of 50 percent of victims. But there is only one difference. The Israeli soldiers, the second 50 percent, were lost all during military operations, except for this one case. Practically all who perishes from Katyushas it is civilians. In this sense clearly that Katyushas bombardment on military facilities is not conducted. From the Israeli bomb 50 percent of the peace population and 50 percent of insurgents perish.

I.Shagal:
- It is necessary to take still into consideration such figures that Israel is in the centre of the Arabian world. The near environment of Israel is 300 million persons. The population of Israel - 7 million. And if to subtract the Arabian population of Israel which roughly greets any successful hit of rockets Hezbollah even if they fall, carrying away lives Arabian grazhdan

Z.Elkin:
- Joseph, you were not some days in Israel, any more so roughly greet, because last days the quantity of hits in the Arabian citizens was very high, almost all a victim were in the Arabian sector. Nasralla has already ceased to choose, where it shoots. Therefore the Arabian inhabitants of Israel already too start to understand that the Katyusha does not choose between the Arabian teenager and Jewish.

I.Shagal:
- If to consider a quantitative parity proportional it not seems to me terrifying this parity of victims. To me speak: how so, from - for two soldiers to begin war? In the given concrete case it has been begun not from - for two soldiers, but basically Israel that state which from - for one soldier can begin war. At us the relation to life of the soldier the such. And for murder and death of the soldier if the consequence is held and it will be found out that in it the concrete person is guilty, can deprive of fast of the Minister of Defence. For children respond all. It to a question on children. All of them children. We very much protect children.

N.Andrushchenko:
- Hezbollah the beginnings actively to support except the Arabian world also the people. And many come over to the side Hezbollah . That I saw on one of our channels, the picture was from Israel where the crying old man said that to me all the same, the government of Israel, me all the same who will be at the head, or Hezbollah or who, the main thing that there was no war that me did not bomb. I had a sensation that the nation Israel in it does not support the government, in aggression. How you therefrom see?

Z.Elkin:
- the Given concrete plot I saw. It was the old man from the Arabian settlement, the Arab. It is clear that it is impossible to measure it by one television reporting. It is possible to find always in any country one person who will loudly tell whom it supports or not. There are two ways - it is possible to spend polls and it is possible to look at reaction of a political spectrum because the political spectrum represents more - less all population of the country. Here again the data very simple.
if you take for today the Israeli Knesseth there practically on this question does not remain to opposition. Here Joseph the deputy from opposition, I is a deputy from a coalition, is not present during opposition and coalition war. More than 90 percent of deputies of the Israeli Knesseth absolutely unequivocally support today government actions. If there is a criticism, it return. There is today a huge pressure today on the government from the majority of oppositional deputies to operate much more rigidly, than it operates. And almost unique deputies who act with government condemnation, it is deputies of the Arabian parties.
I do not speak deputies - Arabs . There are deputies - Arabs in the general Israeli parties which support government actions. Deputies of the Arabian parties oppose this war, them less than 10 percent of deputies in the Knesseth. And their voters publish today letters in a press: you any more do not represent us. Because from this war the Arabian children perish also. It is a situation of a political spectrum. Take polls. According to all available information polls from 80 to 90 percent of the population of Israel, and after all Arabs in Israel much more 10 percent, are supported by government actions, and again there is only a criticism that they insufficiently rigid.
if you take Lebanon ask Valida Dzhumblata who represents the most part of Lebaneses that he thinks about Nasrallu and about Hezbollah ? Another matter that the government of Lebanon has in many respects appeared today the hostage Hezbollah . It does not risk to go on one decision on which there will be no primary consent Hezbollah because it is not ready on a confrontation with this militia which has turned today to one of the most well equipped armies of the world near by at own government.

I.Shagal:
- the Second part of the answer to this question: a subject of points or emotional lifting which can receive Hezbollah in case they it is reached something. We will hope that they will not receive these points, anyway, from us precisely will not receive. But in the history there were many examples of how victory, heroism created to the concrete people, the countries a certain force of inertia. On all objective parametres they like should not live for long, should break up and so on. But here this inertia, this aura of heroism, especially in the Islamic world where it is cultivated that you clearly imagined, in state Israel territory, not outside of it, at the Arabian schools of the Arabian sector on walls hang photos of shahids, martyrs, people which, having blown up itself, destroyed children. Buses with children, with those children whom it is exact to it of any relation had no. And here they worship to them and speak: here the shahid - the present Moslem.

Z.Elkin:
- Really each point Hezbollah is tomorrow not only explosion in Tel - Abib, it tomorrow explosion in the Moscow underground. This communication works.

I.Shagal:
- I am far from this thought someone to intimidate. Each country leads the life. It already was, history repeats itself. Understand, try to comprehend this moment. Such yet was not. That Hezbollah has opened the cell, much it is not necessary. The mosque is necessary, the pair - a three of devout Moslems and pair - a three of young men which will come is necessary and will register in terrorists. If it was difficult to make it it, today, after a series " earlier; heroic acts which they have made in southern Lebanon, in this aura of glory they can receive more trust, it is more than money, to earn more forces and to put more harm. Israel traditionally continues to remain that country on which all experiments of a civilisation are fulfilled. And today we take up that blow which basically is intended not only to us. And I would not want, that the history was developed so that I had to convince you of how much I am right. I wanted, that it has stopped at the given stage.
  I would like, that Hezbollah has been destroyed, liquidated, that metastasises from this tumour have not crept away worldwide that already was.

N.Andrushchenko:
- How much it is possible?

I.Shagal:
It is possible. It is possible only in one case. There are certain contradictions. In Israel there is such expression - double-faced . The person having two persons and having ability to look from two parties. I as that old horse who was there and was here, I have a possibility to look at this situation. The basic main error of all remedial, peace-making and other organisations consists only in one: they are torn absolutely off from a reality.
I too support human rights, for me too sacred - life of the child. What we, not people, a leah that? But that you have understood, what is it, conditionally speaking, in Russia is with whom to speak. Because there are people, whose relatives and children were at this performance on Dubrovke, or whose children and wives were in Beslan. Here with this person it will be easy to me to agree, because he understands me, he understands my language. With that who saw this all in a framework on the First channel or on Si - En - En to be explained difficultly.
I agree that there is nothing svjatee life of the child. Here there is no dispute subject. Certainly, but again - taki if it is a question of my children, excuse, I want, that veins my child. If everyone argues so if each of us understands that the terrorism is threat to everything, instead of to Jews. All.
the terrorism already has proved to be everywhere, in the quietest points of a planet, everywhere, in London, in Madrid. If all understand it and will start to operate together, without choosing diplomatic formulations, not julja and without maneuvering from political reasons, and to think only of one - about security of the citizens, about security of children. It sounds lozungovo, but it is life If you have children, you are responsible for their life. And you cannot be responsible for their life if your country does not understand how much it is terrible - threat to your child. That fact that it easy goes to kindergarten today or school and comes back home, at all does not mean that so will be always. We too so thought. At us huge movement of the left forces, at us is a lot of the peacemakers, many denounced the government of Israel for ekspansionistskuju a policy, that we did not leave from territories, I it very well remember all.
today, alas, I am not glad to it. Today right there were those who speaks: do not leave Lebanon - receive. Do not leave Gaza - receive. Do not carry on this peace dialogue - buses will blow up. All has appeared how they and spoke. Unfortunately. It is life, it is experience. We are ready to share it.
we have arrived to try to find common language, to adjust dialogue. Want - come. Gate are opened, we wait for you. Anybody will impose nothing to you.
  We will show you seamy side of this war. It you do not see, it is not present in the screen of TVs. Come, as there came representatives of the Ukrainian press.

N.Andrushchenko:
- Our correspondent there, has been wounded.

I.Shagal:
is too about something speaks. There has arrived the person and is wounded. And at you the reporting was, how you pulled out it?

N.Andrushchenko:
- Certainly, was. We had whole turns from Jaroslavy Tankovoj.

I.Shagal:
- And the television has picked up this subject?

N.Andrushchenko:
- I did not see.

I.Shagal:
- I too.

Z.Elkin:
- I will add to a question, it is possible or not to destroy the terrorist organisation. As shows experiment of all world history, with the terrorist organisation it is possible to consult only in two ways. The first - to go to it on concessions, to give it that she wants. There are places where it is possible. I think that if to Basques in Spain to give independence, they, maybe, will calm down. Also will not be baskskogo terror. But in a case with Islamic terror to give them that they want, it means to recognise their domination over itself. Hardly the world civilisation on it is ready today.
  also there is a second way. It when she understands that a method of terror it does not reach the purposes. Each success, let the small, terrorist organisation is a replenishment ten times its numbers. This formula worked everywhere and always. While the international community will understand that conflicts today in many respects not local, and the general, it is some one line of struggle, and that occurs in one point, is given absolutely to another in some years, only after that it is possible to cope with terror.
successes of the Russian armies in the Chechen Republic have strongly brought down including an agiotage of Muslim terrorists in sector of Gaza or in Judea, Samaria. And here successes Hezbollah in Lebanon have strongly developed sensation of possibility of success at the same Muslim terrorists worldwide.

N.Andrushchenko:
- There is such orthodox prayer: Ask the world to Jerusalem . Very much it would be desirable, that on this earth at last - that there has come the world. Thanks that were at us, have dispelled some myths.

Z.Elkin:
- If you knew, how we would like it!